EV Quarterly Discussion Webinar - Multi-Unit Dwellings and EV Infrastructure (Text Version)
This is a text version of the video for EV Quarterly Discussion Webinar - Multi-Unit Dwellings and EV Infrastructure presented on June 22, 2015.
Sandra Loi: Good morning and good afternoon everyone and welcome to today's Clean Cities webinar. I'm Sandra Loi from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory. Today's webinar is part of a series of EV or electric vehicle quarterlly discussion webinars and today's focus is on PEVs or plug in electric vehicles, multiunit dwellings and electric vehicle infrastructure. In a moment I will turn the webinar over to Ms. Linda Bluestein national Clean Cities co-director who will be our host and will introduce the webinar further as well as today's speakers. We are recording today's webinar and a link will be emailed out to all of today's participants later this week. We will also post the recording of this webinar on the Clean Cities webinar archive page on our website.
Before we get started I'd like to go over a few items so that you know how to participate in today's webinar. As noted at the start of the webinar all attendees are in listen only mode and will remain so through the entirety of the webinar. When you logged into today's webinar by default you will be set to listen in using your computer's speaker system. If you would prefer to join over the telephone just select telephone in the audio pane in your control panel and the dial in information will be displayed. You need to select one or the other and preferably not both.
` We will be hosting a Q&A session at the conclusion of all of today's presentations. We encourage you to submit questions as the presentations are taking place. You can do so by typing your questions into the questions pane of the control panel. We will collect these and address them during the Q&A session at the end of today's presentation. So without further ado I'd like to introduce Ms. Linda Bluestein, Linda, you may begin.
Linda Bluestein: Good afternoon and good morning to some of you. I want to welcome you to this quarterly webinar and today as Sandra mentioned we are going to focus on multiunit dwellings. And why is this an important market? As some of you have observed from your own urban area urban areas are becoming much more dense and there's much more reliance on condominiums and also on apartment buildings in terms of housing stock. And as urbanization grows and these type of dwellings gain momentum it's important that we understand the best practices and how to get the conversation started at least with building owners and developers. And this particular webinar was designed to show you some of that and also to learn firsthand about what's been done so far and also to present you with some important case studies to show you how this works in reality.
We're going to start out first during this presentation with a quick state of play market overview by C2ES and Nick Nigro will talk to us very briefly about a total plug in electric vehicle market overview. Dan Welch from C2ES will follow up and talk about some of the successes that have been met by some of our Clean Cities community readiness projects that were given grants during 2012. Then after they discuss that for 15 minutes we'll move right into Joel Pointon's presentation. He is with San Diego – was with San Diego Gas and Electric and now has his own consultancy. And he's been involved in San Diego region's aggressive introduction of plug in electric vehicles since he began the clean transportation program for San Diego Gas and Electric in 2006.
And he's worked directly with auto makers, charging vendors, municipal and federal governments and stakeholders and assisting the development of regulations, standards and guidelines for PEVs and has served on a number of boards and advisory groups across the U.S. His particular passion is working and assisting with multiunit dwelling communities and addressing vehicle charging challenges. He currently co-chairs the California plug in electric vehicle collaborative's working group for multiunit and workplace charging so he truly is one of the leading experts in this area. And then recently after taking retirement from San Diego Gas and Electric he is now the principal of JRP Charge Consulting which focuses on multiunit vehicle charging support. And he's a past board member and chairperson of the San Diego Regional Clean Cities Coalition. And for that we are extremely grateful.
The other presenter that will follow Joel Pointon is Jukka Kukkonen and he is with Plug In Connect and helps organizations develop new EV market related programs. And over the past two years he worked extensively in apartment building, condominium and workplace charging and he has been honored with a certificate of recognition from Minnesota governor Mark Dayton's office for this work and for the EV market Minnesota. And in 2013 he received the Sustainable St. Paul award and he actually is calling us today from Finland. So we're very much pleased that we was able to call in and make it today's technology mix possible along with the internet. So without further ado we will start with C2ES and the market state of play and Nick Nigro from C2ES.
Nick Nigro: Thanks Linda. So as Linda mentioned Dan and I are going to give you a quick overview on the state of play. We do this every quarter in collaboration with Department of Energy's Clean Cities program and Argonne National Lab. So I'm going to talk about the market and technology state of play, specifically what's going on with vehicles charging stations, the state and local policy front and also a little bit about multiunit dwellings as that's our focus this quarter. Dan will then get into a spotlight on the community readiness grant and how some of them have been able to successfully take action to support multiunit dwellings and charges.
So those of us who follow the EV market closely will notice that sales have been more or less flat for the last year or so. This chart graphs the rolling average, 12 month average of all electric vehicles, BEV and plug in hybrid electric vehicles or PHEVs over since January of 2013. And by doing the rolling average we kind of smooth out the numbers so that you avoid any of the fluctuations in month to month sales' variations. What you can see is since some time last year the rolling average is pretty flat but if you dig a little deeper as we've done in this chart you can see that the battery electric vehicle sales are actually increasing and it's the plug in hybrid sales that have been decreasing slightly.
The trend lines here are to give you a perception, an understanding of how we can't just stop and look at the market in a snapshot. The EV market is evolving rapidly. So if you get a forecast of where we'd be today a year ago in May there'd be a difference of about 1300 vehicle sales, 1300 vehicles for sale in the month of May when you look at the trend based on today's available data. There are lots of reasons why this might be happening beginning with the low gas prices that we've been experiencing in the country since last summer to the announcement by General Motors on a second generation Chevy Volt in addition to other announcements by auto makers about more affordable longer range all electric vehicles including the announcement by General Motors and the announcement by Tesla may also be affecting these sales.
Meanwhile the charging infrastructure is actually expanding rapidly nationwide. This data that I'm showing you, the chart on the left, is just the change in station location growth in the last quarter since March, the last time we presented to you all. This is all based on data from the Department of Energy's alternative fuels data center. What you can see is level two stations have grown by six percent in just a few months. And DC fast charging locations have grown by over ten percent. The market is certainly growing in the publicly available charging space. On the right you can see a chart of what kinds of stations are out there. Many of them, in fact most of the stations are networked to enable easier access for customers to be able to use a publicly available charging station. And in fact but only 32 percent of the stations are not networked.
Also since March lots of activity has been going on in the states. On the left side are more generally positive trends for the electric vehicle market. On the right side are some of the challenges that are facing EVs at the policy at the state and local levels. On the left side when it comes to vehicles three states have either enacted, restarted or replenished funds for an electric vehicle rebate program. That's in the space of Connecticut, Tennessee and in Massachusetts. And all three states these rebate programs discount the upfront cost of the vehicle whether it be by technology so a plug in hybrid or an all electric vehicle or based on the battery size. So again in all three states they're supporting both kinds of electric vehicle technology.
In the state of Washington the state legislature there enacted a law recently to encourage investor owned utility to use rate payer funds for charging infrastructure. The legislature had to act in this way because existing previous law in the state prohibited the investor owned utilities from using any rate payer funds to increase the electric load. That was to support the states conservation policy but due to the benefits that the electric vehicles, increasing the electric vehicle market in the state. Due to the benefits it offers from the environmental perspective the state ended up enacting a law to make an exception for electric vehicle charging in this conservation policy.
On the right side of this slide you can see some of the challenges that the EV market faces. And probably the most known and perhaps having the largest impact on vehicle sales is the sunsetting of the $5,000.00 all electric vehicle tax credit in Georgia. This $5,000.00 credit was a key driver in making Georgia one of the national leaders in all electric vehicle sales behind only California. Now since this credit has not yet sunset we're not sure of the reaction to the market but we can probably expect it to have a noticeable effect on sales in this case.
Another policy I wanted to highlight with you all is what's going on in Indianapolis. Now the mayor there has, is trying to implement a very ambitious and innovative program to convert many of the publicly public fleet vehicles to electric using an innovative business model aimed at saving the city money on fleet operations. Unfortunately the city council has acted to suspend this progress of this program implementation and has actually voted to sue the mayor in an attempt to stop or either reform the program.
So as Linda mentioned earlier we are focusing this quarter on multiunit dwelling challenges and since Jukka and Joel are going to go into much more detail about this we just wanted to give you a quick highlight and scan on what's going on from, in the electric vehicle space from the point of view of multiunit dwellings. When you're thinking about this 25 percent of whole households in the United States lives in multiunit dwellings and 60 percent of total renters live in these dwellings. So residents of multiunit dwellings are potentially large but difficult to tap market for EV ownership. EV drivers at these locations are likely going to want to charge at home and if they aren't able to do so especially all electric vehicle drivers, they're going to want quick charging likely. They're going to likely want quick charging available nearby.
This chart just highlights some of the most noticeable actions to clear barriers and encourage the adoption of electric vehicles in multiunit dwellings. One I want to highlight for you in particular is the proposals by the three California investor owned utilities to the public utility commission to make significant rate pair funded investments in publicly in charging infrastructure. Each one of these proposals has been angled to support multiunit dwellers. We're told the commission is expected to rule on these proposals this year. In addition Charge Point also offers a special program to support multiunit dwellings.
On the city side you've got New York City and Philadelphia both taking actions to make it easier for multiunit dwellers. In Philly you can, EV owners can apply to help fund a publicly available charging station at the curbside. And in New York 20 percent of all new parking spaces in big garages have to be EV ready. One last thing I want to highlight is in California the California renters' law which established its tenant's right to purchase and install EV charging stations at multiunit dwellings. And now I'll let Dan give you an update on the community readiness grant recipients.
Dan Welch: Thanks Nick. So as Linda mentioned earlier we're going to be talking about a few of the local recipients of 2012 DOE grant. There are 16 recipients total that received funding to investigate and prepare regional electric vehicle readiness proposals. The three we've highlighted here are – they've done some significant work in planning for MUD electric vehicle access. So the three that we have highlighted at Empire Clean Cities and that's in New York City in the lower Hudson Valley, Southeast Florida's Clean Cities Coalition in Southeast Florida and then finally the Delaware Valley regional planning commission. For this project we're only discussing five counties in Southeast Pennsylvania, not the whole region as sometimes serves.
So a few of the highlights that came up between all coalitions are that the first consumer demand is very important. It's kind of an inverse if you build it they will come. That rather EV owners have to come to building managers with a need for the charging and the building managers will respond. Also preparing for future construction is critical. It reduces future costs and avoids potential of stranded assets and we'll get to that in a second. And then finally workplace charging is a very important complimentary EV access. When there are difficulties with reaching multiunit dwellings the work places are out there and they're available. Next slide.
So first we have New York City and Empire Clean Cities. So as you can see here there are nearly 3,000 EVs but only a little less than 200 public ports. And that's important. It's a relatively low number of public ports to the amount of electric vehicles. And that makes access at garages and private residences more important without all of the public charging access. Obviously in New York there are a high level of multiunit dwellings. This is doubly important. And you can see here that state agencies are currently engaged in EV initiatives such as NYSERDA and __ and those would include the Charge New York plan. That's the governor's plan to deploy chargers throughout the state as well as electric vehicles will be incorporated into broader plans such as the utility reformation called Reforming the Energy Vision.
Mayor Bloomberg, the previous mayor was very proactive about climate policies. The new mayor, Mayor DeBlasio is currently formulating his plan. But the one New York City plan does incorporate room for electric vehicles to grow. One thing that was noted and I made reference to earlier is that building managers need a business case. So this is where we really got the idea that consumers drive the demand for public charging, rather multiunit dwelling charging. So it's very helpful then that New York City has the regulation to enable access for 20 percent of all spots in new off street parking. Next slide.
So Empire Clean Cities is involved with finding innovative technology uses for electric vehicles. They're developing a study on a second life for EV batteries, being able to use an electric vehicle battery when it's done at the end of its life definitely improves the value proposition for EV ownership. It's very similar to a project I won't go too far into but in Yellowstone they're trying a pilot project to hook up Toyota batteries to a solar array.
The Empire Clean Cities is trying to look into curbside and building side charging, that's literally chargers in the side of a building. Currently it's not allowed to have charging access points right on the curb in New York City. So they're talking with things like City Bike which uses electricity or Taxi fleets to try to find ways to skirt the issue. Part of that is that they're involved with a pilot project in Brooklyn to provide electricity to food trucks. It's a private area. It's a private campus in Brooklyn so that gives them the opportunity to not conflict with city ordinances. And then finally the utility ConEd has been very interested in the role of distribution regeneration and resilience after Hurricane Sandy. Electric vehicles became a potential opportunity to distribute generation. Next slide.
All right. So here we have Drive Elecric Florida in Florida. That's from the Southeast Florida Clean Cities coalition. So if you take a look at the EV use to the public charging you'll see that is still a relatively low number and particularly again in this area. EVs are a very large percentage of inhabitants, half of Miami Dade County for instance live in multiunit dwellings. So the readiness plan that the coalition created a few years ago is now being used by local and state agencies. One example is that the coalition and as well as Florida Power and Light helped write Broward County's EV regulations. So they're a very valuable resource for policy questions. They're also really involved in complimentary charging approaches so that's partnering with national parks. That creates electric vehicle charger visibility and encourages tourism. Also workplace charging so Broward County is a great example. It was the first to join the DOE workplace charging challenge and it provides great opportunities when MUD charging isn't available. Next slide.
So there are a few different strategies and techniques to increasing EV access at multiunit dwellings. One would be valets, providing valets to help manage charging services in garage. That's an expensive solution, the short term for whoever has to pay for that but it would help resolve I think access issues. There are new technological solutions such as the Charge Point program that Nick mentioned but right now those might not be ready for prime time. So there's still a lot of investigation that's going on here. In the meantime the coalition as well as Florida Power and Light, they're close partners are engaging in outreach at regional building management events, condo expos and speaking engagement on climate issues as well as serving as an information center for interested building managers. It keeps them very busy. As you can see there are four to six new buildings per week that they're approached about so it's very labor intensive engaging them one on one to be able to provide information for each new building.
Next slide. So finally we have the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission. It's a regional planning commission for these five counties near Philadelphia. So they're currently gathering data to comprehensively determine the number of EVs in the region but the charging levels here, the charging numbers are from the DOE's alternative fuel data center. I'm not sure if these include the Philadelphia – the innovative individual curbside charging numbers. So like in New York EVs are being considered for city resilience by the government. One thing that this coalition really, really emphasizes is the role of level one charging. It provides inexpensive easy access. It's not a huge investment for building managers. It counts for use at work places where cars sit for eight hours or more and it let's building owners try these things, try allowing access before having to invest in level two charging. Next slide.
So like the other organizations, the DVVRVPC is serving as an informational resource to interested building managers and municipalities, planning authorities. So building on the idea of L1 instead of investing in costly charging equipment that with uncertain uses providing conduit is a way to reduce future costs of having to trench through built environments as well as it allows the managers of charging stations to be able to switch around. If everything is built for charging then if a renter leaves or if they even switch spaces it provides necessary flexibility. As well as they are engaged in a study on the overall fleet emissions, that's greenhouse gas emissions from the entire area.
So they're involved in and are now supposed to target where those emissions can improve and that's from all vehicles and electric vehicles would provide a great growth opportunity. And finally they're also engaged in working with local utilities. Utilities are really concerned about the growth and load from electric vehicles. So being able to plan for that is an important part. And that's all.
Linda Bluestein: Thanks, Dan. Next we want to introduce Joel Pointon. As we're getting the slides some questions have been coming in and I did answer a couple of them privately but we can talk maybe about some of them after the presentations that Joel and Jukka are going to make. Thanks
Joel Pointon: Good day everyone. This is Joel Pointon and thank you for the opportunity to talk about one of my pet projects which is multiunit dwellings. I'm sure all of you have seen the statistics. 80 to 90 percent of vehicle charging occurs in the home. Here in San Diego 55 percent of our population, and it's constantly increasing, live in multiunit dwelling communities. So you can see that in order to enable the option for electric transportation that segment of the population needs to be given access. And it's a bit of a challenge for them, has been so far. So we want to get into some of the details. I just want to mention in passing I work as a co-chair for the multiunit workplace working group for the California Plug In Electric Vehicle Collaborative.
It's a public private organization to accelerate the adoption of plug in electric vehicles in California. There are more than 40 PEV stakeholders, auto makers, utilities representing charging equipment, network providers, government research and education. So this is a presentation that we have been using primarily with the Plug In Electric Vehicle Collaborative. I have put up front some of the basic slides. We're going to slide through those. I provide them as a backup for those folks for whom this may be an introduction to this topic but we will very quickly get to case studies in the California region.
So as we just talked about the increasing populations in multiunits. With that increasing requests from tenants for charging access. And as we all have probably realized by now there's a set of unique challenges. I'm not going to go into the PEV types but I provide the slide to you so that you can easily convey to people if you're doing presentations on multiunit boards of homeowner associations, etcetera, to help them understand there are two different types of vehicles and two different types of charging profiles that you'll see with these. As we saw in the illustration earlier for the plug in electric vehicle adoption talked about some of the flattening out in the numbers, the monthly numbers. Here we just see a representation with the cumulative numbers for both U.S. sales and also for state of California.
There are, again this is for illustration purposes. I'm not going to go through all of the BEV models but it helps people to understand that there's a growing spectrum of vehicles that they can choose from both in the battery electric vehicles and the plug in hybrid vehicles. Unfortunately Honda just announced that they are, excuse the pun, pulling the plug on the Honda Accord plug in hybrid. They will not introduce plug in vehicles until they have established their introduction for their hydrogen fuel cell vehicle in 2016. But we hope that they'll be returning to the market following that.
So why do we install charging at multiunit dwellings? We're trying to help people convey that this is going to be an amenity in the future that will attract the types of tenants they are looking for. It will help them with their greener image for marketing purposes and those that are promoting sustainable practices in particular, the LEAD points that you can get for providing alternative fuel refueling in your properties. Those go towards your accumulative points for achieving the various levels of LEAD certification. And as we've seen the PEV sales continue to increase in the sense that we're getting cumulatively more and more vehicles. I think once the Volt has come to market we'll see the PHEV sales pick up again but we'll have to wait and see how that pans out.
So residential charging equipment very basically keep referring to the AC level one. You see the cord sit there on the left. It goes into a three prong outlet on the wall. This is just a visual to help you in your presentations to other to understand. These come with the vehicle and there's nothing special about that wall outlet except that we always recommend that it be ground fault, a ground fault installation because of wet environments where these could be used. And then we see the wall set type of arrangement with the charging unit using 208 or 240. That's the AC level two.
And we're going to talk a little bit about it doesn't come in just one flavor. You'll see that we see AC level two at a variety of flavors these days. Please note there is that 12 inch cord connection requirement for these wall hung units under the codes. And that's to keep the unit in visual connection with the wall plug. You can put a wall plug on these and plug them in but you're limited to a very short cord. However there are now 240 cord sets that people are utilizing especially in private residences.
So we try to provide in the guide that we have for the Plug In Electric Vehicle Collaborative. We provide this guide so that people get a sense of how much range they can get. And again it varies a little depending on the vehicle you have but give them a ballpark because you do not charge your entire battery every day. You're charging for the number of miles that you've utilized that day. So it gives them a much better feel. So we see four different levels here for the amperage on AC level two. And actually we're seeing intermediate levels here. I have three, a 32 amp cord set that I use because I can plug it into a dryer outlet. That dryer outlet, that permit cost me $15.00 versus $150.00 dollars if I were to get a permit for an EVSE installation. So these are some of the considerations you want to be aware of with your local codes as well.
So our usual approach in advocating people to begin their process conducting a survey of residents – and we provide a survey. I'll give you links towards the end. But the property management go in and try to get a sense of where their residents are, where they're going relative to looking at plug in electric vehicles, looking at the different approaches and options for installing charges and that's where these case studies come in handy. Contacting an electric contractor; most properties have worked with electric contractor in the past who will be familiar with what their present wiring situation is. That contractor is going to have to work out some load calculations before you go on to the utility and you want to start having discussions with the utility about the installation project and the scope of what it might look like going forward. And then the contractor is going to coordinate all of the permitting and planning with the local utility municipal government for all of the details going forward.
We just tried to lay out for people what the varying costs are, level one for hardware costs are the least expensive. The non-communicating level two and the midrange and then the higher level level two with the ability to do telemetrics, etcetera. Installation, the nearer you are to your infrastructure, greenscaping versus hardscape trenching, surface mounting in garages or in your low cost. And then metering, looking at whether you're going to common area meters, you're combining the EV in a separate meter or installing individual meters for each EVSE. Operation and maintenance, you're looking at your EV time of use rates are usually going to be your cheapest options. You're looking at rates, usually small business commercial rates. We have a 20 kilowatt load cut off in San Diego where you start getting into demand charges. Those are going to bring you into the higher cost range.
Some considerations for PE. Your building architecture and physical electric design, your proximity for electric service room to your desired location, your wiring needed to accommodate the charging stations and the distances you're going to travel, commercial electricity rates for common area meters and the cost of installation and your parking ownership models. You have none assigned, assigned and deeded parking that you may encounter. So some of the different approaches we've seen in case studies, hiring a turnkey operator to handle all charging services payments and even communications with any of the residents that have the service, installing individually assigned charging units. Residents can individually select their own charging unit. The resident pays directly for the energy use. We'll look at one of those case studies. Installing charges is a shared community resource and we often see this combined with valet services so that you can limit the number of chargers but you have someone that's coordinating moving those vehicles off of the chargers so it doesn't become a burden for the residents.
And then a range for the use of nearby business chargers during off evening hours. This is the least convenient but it is an option that is being investigated in some areas. Another illustration for you to use just showing how an individual would live with a large circle is they may park in a remote area and their metering may be in yet another area. So these are some of the basic concepts to understand in approaching this. So our California PEVC case studies – we've been collecting case studies. You can see the format that each case study is summarized in on the web and that website is located directly below the case studies I'm going into now. You can go to each of these summary pages. You'll get additional details on that summary page that you can go to. They're definitely more colorful and they have more pictures so I recommend if you want more detail please take advantage of that and go to the website and look at them directly.
So the thing I want to talk about, this is City Front Terrace located here in San Diego. It's an upscale condominium establishment. They chose to pre-wire or make ready 20 AC level two connections and the way they did that you can see the pictures there. They installed 20 individual meters, residential meters. What this did was allowed their residents to then take advantage of our EV time of use rate. That's only available to residential customers. They get billed directly. The bill gets sent to them. The wiring infrastructure you can see on the next picture is more intensive. They're wiring directly to each parking space. They have the last picture you see this resident chose their own charging unit. They purchased their own charging unit and then they connect to the disconnect that is located directly in their parking space.
This is probably one of the more intensive projects both from a labor and cost point of view. The way this particular HOA chose to deal with it the total cost of the project is $80,000.00. If you wish to have the wiring brought to your parking space you pay 1/20th of that cost or $4,000.00 per space. And again more details are available on the website. The Millennium Tower in San Francisco; here we have a large high rise community. They have indicated that they have three AC level one units and three AC level two units in this initial charging project that they began. The program is designed to be revenue neutral. In other words they have established the price that they feel recoups both the installation, the electricity and the maintenance charges for their subscription for reports and the back office support for the charging units. The members each have a Charge Point membership and then they are charged accordingly through that membership at the rates that were determined by the HOA and you see the rates that they began with there. Drivers share the three level two chargers using a valet to manage their use and here they were able to take advantage of some of the California electric commission's grants that were available at the time for the installation of charging in multiunit points.
Our next case study, these are the Towers at Costa Verde. Again at San Diego this is unusual in that there are condominium style living units but they are for rent. Here the management's top priority was to get out of the middle. They did not want to become a service for charging services. They signed up with the NRG EV Go program which is offered through the CPUC settlement. That program the installation costs approximately $21,000.00. That provided ten level two charging units and when they did the wiring infrastructure they preplanned for an additional ten charging units for that project. That's often something that I will recommend to people when they're looking at it, that they look at phased approaches. If you're going through the cost of installing wiring upgrades anticipate the demand within the next ten years, five to ten years so that you don't have to keep duplicating those costs each time you're going to your next phase of your program.
The Elysian, 96 units. This is located in Los Angeles. This company had a great motivation to be sustainable. They installed ten AC level two with dual ports which gives them 20 connections. They installed five within the garage area and five in an outside parking lot. They purchased the Charge Point chargers directly installed by an onsite electrician. Residents are free and then guests pay by the kilowatt hour based on time of day. They want to have the charging units available for the residents primarily in the evening so guests pay a higher kilowatt hour fee during the evening hours when they're most needed for the residents of this particular community. So you can see how each community will style their costs and what they're charging their residents based on what fits their particular community.
Shelter Creek Condos, this is located in actually that should not say San Diego. That is not located in San Diego. This one is in the San Francisco region I believe. Its 1296 units. They have four level two dual ports giving them eight connections. Again drivers are paying ChargePoint. They're actually not paying for electricity here. They're paying for the charging service at a price determined by the HOA and property management. This, so the arrangement, the pricing is determined by the HOA and Charge Point just does the billing for the HOA at whatever cost point they have set. Here in particular it's $1.25 per kilowatt hour.
Their – the feeling of the HOA is that it needed to be high to cover service fees, installation, etcetera, initially and they're hoping to reduce those fees once there are more users. This is one of the highest per kilowatt hour charges I've seen for multiunit dwelling charging project. And their installation costs about $20,000.00 recovered mostly by the CEC, California Electric Commission grants. So this one is in San Diego, Sofia Lofts. 17 units, one level one, two level two units.
This one is unusual in that they are combined the all electric car share program, CartoGo in San Diego, with the community. Car to Go worked with Aerovironment charges, obtained a grant from the California Energy Commission. Two charging units within a covered garage area. There are two CartoGo vehicles that charge on those units. Those units are available not only to the residents of this community but anyone in that neighborhood who can go online and schedule one of those vehicles. So they're providing plug in electric vehicle experience for the residents without having to own the vehicle in an urban environment.
I wanted to touch quickly – there was a reference made earlier on the three investor owned utility projects or the CPUC so I wanted to make sure – so I wanted to make sure that we had at least a summary of what those projects look like. The SDG&E project is looking at 5500 units at 550 different sites, 10 units at each site. They're looking at both apartments and workplaces. The utility will own the make ready and the utility will own the charger in that particular instance. They will be doing something unique in their tariff. They will charging for a variable daytime rate and the variation occurs with the demand that is being seen on the local grid and you get notification in advance of what that cost will be the day before and you can do that through an app and do your scheduling for charging using that.
Southern California Edison, 3,000 units. They didn't specify the number of sites. You can see the cost, $346 million, partnered work places and public interest sites and the difference here is the host site will own the charger. The unit pricing is determined by the host and the EVSP. And Pacific Gas and Electric, 25,000 units, $653 million, apartment, workplaces and public interest sites. The utility does the make ready. The utility owns the charger and the utility tariff goes direct to the user. So additional information on this can be found in the California Public Utilities commission website and you can read the proposals in detail.
So I just want to mention again this plug in electric vehicle guide that we have available is available at the plug in electric vehicle website, covers the information you see on the right including some case studies. We will publish more case studies on the website as we go along. We also have decision guides that can be downloaded geared towards property owners, home owner associations or residents. And then resources, we have a resident survey. You can download it, use it as a hard copy or you can do it using Survey Monkey and the bay area AQMD, Air Quality Management District will actually assist in helping you get your details as to your survey results.
Just to mention also on the PEVC website you can also find similar guides for workplace charging and it's just the – you would have /workplace-charging and that will bring you directly to those guides. For more information you can go to those two websites. I also want to mention in passing California Energy Commission is making funding available, small business financing programs. That has been recently announced. That website will take it to you. They may provide up to 100 percent coverage to lenders on certain loan defaults and borrowers may be eligible to receive a rebate of 10 to 15 percent for enrolled loan amounts. And we did verify those are available to multiunit dwelling projects and to HOAs.
The California Air Resources Board has just announced another program in May where lower income families can get as much as $12,000.00 towards the purchase of an electric vehicle, up to $2,000.00 for charging unit can be applied for under another program and you can qualify for an additional $1,500.00 for a PHEV or $2,500.00 for a BEV under the clean vehicle rebate project for the state of California. And again vehicle references can be found at the driveclean.california.gov. So if you have any questions my email address is there. Please feel free to send them. And this presentation and the recording as mentioned earlier will be available to you going forward. Thank you.
Linda Bluestein: This is Linda Bluestein again. I'd like to thank Joel Pointon. This is actually the third time he's presented on multiunit housing and it's really interesting to hear the progress that's being made and the model that California offers that he's been presenting and we really appreciate that very much. But now we want to hear from somebody who's done something in the middle of the country and hear how that's gone. And for the first time we're going to have Jukka Kukkonen discussing how things have been going with the project that he's been working on partially financed by DOE in Minnesota.
Jukka Kukkonen: Well hello. Greetings from lovely Finland here. It's already 8:00 here but since it's almost 24 hours of sun I don't have any problem with this. So I'll bring you a Minnesota perspective here to this webinar. I have worked quite extensively on apartment and condominium charging in the last three years and the majority of this work was part of the advance in Alternatives for Minnesota drivers' initiative. This project was coordinated by the Twin Cities Clean Cities Coalition and my company Parking Connect LLC did the work as a subcontractor. And I would of course like to thank Department of Energy for providing the funding for this project. A couple words about my past and present work on the principal of parking connect and help companies develop EV related projects and solutions to the market.
For the last three years condos and apartments have been one of my main focus areas and you can find all of the materials we've developed and what I mention here during this presentation by visiting the multihousingcharging.com. Past year in the spring we have also built very cool solutions to workplace charging as part of the Minnesota pollution control agency sponsored outreach project. If you are interesting in workplace charging I would encourage you to visit workplacecharging.com and check out some of those tools and materials. And in 2012 I started the Minnesota parking vehicle owner's circle that has grown to become one of the largest and most active regional parking vehicle owner's groups in the nation. And owner's groups like these are extremely valuable resource. Minnesota parking vehicle owners played an important role also in this project.
A couple of words about the market situation in Minnesota here. Looking at the parking vehicle multihousing and also the charging infrastructure perspectives. We have presently about 3200 PEVs on our roads which is not a huge number but not a science project anymore either. We have about 100 public level two charging station locations and about 20 DC fast charging station locations in Twin Cities. And for car and EVSE manufacturers we are second or third tier market. This means that we can get some support if we have great ideas but matter of fact just are not very actively working on our market.
And this is why I am saying this is a little different from what's happening for example in California. I think most of the people here attending this webinar are outside of California and the market's a little different and that's a one thing that we have to always remember. Utility companies also are generally very supportive but they have not been actively pushing programs. Again not like in California. I have to say that this is rapidly changing. Great River Energy for example just announced a frist in nation program that provides renewable energy for parking vehicle owners for the life of the car with no extra cost. And from multi-housing market perspective things are all and well. The occupancy rates are high and new apartment buildings are being built at high rate at the moment. This means of course good cash flow and willingness to invest into value added services.
And one of the biggest differences between California and Minnesota when we think about the apartment buildings and condominiums is that here in Minnesota we have ample parking in most cases which is not so much the case in California often. And we also have very strong business group, Minnesota multi-housing association that is one of the biggest and most active such organizations in the U.S. So what we started to do here is in 2013 we knew that the apartment and condominium charging had the potential to become very challenging area if we wouldn't be proactive with it. So we also had an idea that if we would be successful in this area it could help the overall PEV adoption rate. So we started by putting together a diverse group of stakeholders.
The basic idea was for all of us to learn more and understand the dynamics of the whole concept. We were lucky to have great representation from Minnesota multi-housing association including their president __ and many present and former board members. Their involvement made our work really concrete and well connected to the multi-housing business community. We also had representatives from utility companies, local government representatives, advocacy organizations and electricians. All in all we have enough expertise from all areas. And group members also shared interest, had shared interest there, the biggest one being an understanding that there is a clear need to be proactive in this area. We need it to sell the information, learn and educate each other and then reach out and do the same with other key stakeholders.
Multi-housing charging is a new concept and has the potential to cause a lot of friction because people don't know enough and there are many stakeholders involved. We really wanted to reduce this friction as much as possible and education is the best way to do that. Multi-housing charging can also be used as a new amenity to attract residents and a great way to future proof your property when remodeling or building new properties. All of this provides new business opportunities. This kind of work provides Clean Cities Coalitions a great opportunity to reach out to a large group of organizations that you might have not worked with before.
Our call with the multi-housing charging group was the analyze the EV charging structure implementation barrier in multi-housing buildings and work together to reduce or eliminate those barriers. This group met first quarterly and then as needed. We started with basics to get everyone on the same page when it comes to PEVs, charging and also apartment buildings and condominiums. Based on our discussions we started to look at what kind of education would be needed and how to best reach the decision makers and key stakeholders. As part of this project we did I did some research of what has been done in other parts of U.S. and started to build tools and educational materials as part of this.
We also looked through some legislative work done elsewhere and if the legislation draft document that we could get back to if someone would introduce a bill in Minnesota legislation. We were very clear when drafting this document that our intention was not to introduce it as a bill but just to have an understanding how we could find common ground if someone outside of our group would do that. I don't really think that there was a need for legislative solutions in our market and I think the need has even become smaller and smaller. So there's not really a need for that at the moment in Minnesota.
So like with any new technology there is a lot of hesitation because of lack of information. In most cases property managers and owners don't know enough about multi-housing charging and view electric vehicle charging as complicated and expensive. Once their awareness increases they tend to be more open to figuring out how their complex can install charging. Another challenging dynamic in this is that difference in importance and urgency. Residents who have a vehicle or are about to get one feel that they need the charging structure right now or preferably already yesterday. But property owners and managers have a million things on their plate and this new thing, electric vehicle charging might not get very high on their priority list.
So in order to change this we started contacting property owners, developers and management companies and also start to write some case studies. We published articles, held workshops to draw attention to the topic of electric vehicle charging. We did a multi-housing charging workshop at the Minnesota multi-housing association fall conference in 2013 and in 2014 we were at the same conference in expo area with Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, all the charging infrastructure and a lot of educational materials talking with these same developers, owners and management companies. We also featured multi-housing charging at the Twin Cities auto show and at Minnesota plug in vehicle owner circle meetings. After sharing information about our project with plug in vehicle owners we started to get requests from them to help with their situations.
We also worked with utility companies to educate their customers, government representatives, especially people working with code and inspections are important to reach. And if you get to the headquarters meaning architects, even better. I, for example, just submitted a proposal to talk at the American Institute of Architects for a conference. While doing my research I learned that even though there is a lot of information about condominium and apartment buildings charging there also was a need for concrete tools and real life examples. So we started to develop such tools. Here are the three main tools that we developed and used. The multi-housing charging worksheet provides an easy steps, provides easy steps for plug in vehicle owners and property managers to walk through the decision process.
Power and energy calculation tool will help people to estimate and calculate the power and energy needs and using these numbers they can decide which charging system works for them and get an idea of what the energy costs will be. And the metering and payment system table helps people in exploring the different metering and billing options. All of these tools are publicly available at the multihousingcharging.com so feel free to use them as much as you need. As an example I want to share with you some information about the metering and payment systems tools so you understand what we talk about here. So metering and payment systems table is used to figure out the most cost effective metering options and payment solutions. And I'll just quickly explain the different options.
If you look at the number one there that would be the connected to homeowners existing meter. This is the simplest approach if the connection is possible. If they can do this then the utility company will do the billing and management company doesn't have to touch it at all after that. I think we have two or three case studies in Minnesota where this was done. Then you install new EVSE dedicated utility meter. Joel pointed out a couple of examples from California where they have done this. and then you can have for example EV time of use rate structures there from utility company as a separate service.
Number three, you can do submetering with so that the management company does the billing. This is a good and accurate option to use but the problem is of course there's a lot of work that needs to happen when it comes to the billing and metering, meter reading. So what I recommend normally people is to look at the numbers four and five to start with which is flat billing with annual submetering based assessment or flat billing with estimates. So number four still has the submetering option there but you just do a flat billing, let's say $30.00 a month and at the end of the year you just look at, ok, well you have used $270.00 so you need to pay a little less for it or whatever it is. Normally it's probably like $20.00 or $30.00 one way or another. It's not a huge difference there.
And number five is flat billing estimates. Just calculating the rough number and just using that. In many cases here the parking itself might cost over $100.00 in these places and that's artificially established number. So if you put $35.00 for the charging it doesn't make a huge difference if it happens to be $32.00 or $25.00 or $40.00. It kind of evens out very easily. And then the number six option would be third party system and billing. Joel pointed out a couple of these.
These work really well if you have, if you don't have enough parking available. It's hard to do it that way. The other options that I mentioned are better if you have a dedicated parking where you can easily do the installation and so forth and you have plenty of parking available. But these work well if you have to share the parking spot where you do the charging in that way. They're a little bit more expensive but they serve the purpose of course in that there.
One thing that makes the payment solution somewhat easier is that management company already has an ongoing business relation with residents so adding a new fee for charging is not that big of a deal. This could be much more complicated in work place charging setups since plug in vehicle owners don't necessarily have anything to do with the commercial real estate company that manages the office property. And I have used these tools a lot to explain the different aspects and quickly give developers and property owners and managers an idea of what this might mean in their property and how they could get started with easy and cost effective solutions as easily and cost effectively as possible.
The response has been very, very positive. I have been really excited to see how interested these people are when they actually learn a little bit more about the PEV charts. First when you start talking with them they are a little bit worried about the topic because they feel it's new, complicated and may be expensive and it's another thing that adds to their busy lives. But when you talk with them about 15 minutes they start getting curious and asking questions. And after 30 minutes they start telling you how this is a great idea and they should do something right now. So it's really rewarding when talking with these people when you get an access to speak with them.
We also have done some real life examples. I think real life examples are extremely valuable in this kind of growing market. During this project I wrote over 20 case studies from Twin Cities. These case studies follow the form of the multi housing charging worksheets so people should have a pretty easy time finding out what others have, how others have solved different aspects of the project. During these planning processes I don't necessarily expect property management to install a certain amount of spaces based on our discussions. But the most important thing is that they are aware of this. They have the basic information and some plans in place. This way they are much more open to the idea when one of their residents requests PEV charging infrastructure. And again all of the case studies available at multihousingcharging.com in that website.
What we have learned – so here's a couple of things we have learned. I can't emphasize the business association's role enough. Working with Minnesota multi-housing association provided us realistic market understanding right from the start, extremely valuable context and crucial credibility during the project. It is totally different situation if I as a plug in vehicle advocate go to the developer or property owner and say "Hey. You should look into this EV charging structure." Whereas if one of their peers goes there and tells them that "Hey. You should look into this EV charging infrastructure and here's how you can do it." It's a totally different ballgame in that way.
Make also sure to connect with the plug in vehicle owners. It is very important that they ask for the charging infrastructure. Plug in vehicle owners can feel a bit alone in this but they are much more likely to request this if they know that you have resources and support to help them if needed. Property management needs to hear that there is a request and need for this. I already mentioned how rewarding it is to see their interest levels when key stakeholders learn more about this and it has become very clear that simple and cost effective solutions just happen. If you can provide the property owners cost effective way to do this they'll take action. But I have also heard horror stories where charging solutions have been unnecessarily complicated and expensive and therefore companies have decided not to do anything.
PEV charging in common garage also multiplies. I'll give you an example. Stone Arch Apartments in Minneapolis decided about a year ago to start offering electric vehicle charging as one of their amenities. This has proved to be a popular move. A year ago they had just one PEV owner but now they have four residents who own plug in vehicles and charge in the apartment building's indoor parking garage. One of the new residents chose the Stone Arch Apartments largely because they were offering the EV charge. So charging in common garage doubles also as a vehicle display increasing the PV adoption.
And here's one small thing that we have done recently. We have these electric vehicle charging available here window clings. They are round window clings and now we are sending these to all properties that we have worked with so that they can post this either on their main door or at their office door so that people are reminded that "Hey. You can charge your car here if you're a tenant." So that's one way to do it. So that was my portion. Thank you.
Linda Bluestein: Thank you very much Jukka and thank you Joel for a couple of great presentations with a lot of food for thought on how to tackle the multiunit dwelling market. Also want to thank Nick Nigro and Dan Welch and we're not hanging up now. We've got lots of questions that have come in during the presentation and I think that Sandra, are we ready to take some by phone as well? Ok. I can go ahead and I'm going to start in order of how we got them and if you want to pick up the phone part we can do that in a minute.
First question, this is from Matt Stephens Rich on EV rebate programs ending in Illinois and Georgia would encouraging policy makers to pass EV incentives with sunset help create better predictability in the EV market versus not creating a sunset with past EV incentives? And I don't know if anyone wants to tackle that but I mean obviously that's a strategy to make it more palatable to more lawmakers and maybe see it through some extra time but I don't know that there's any statistics or data out there that prove that this is the best way to do it. I know some legislation caps incentives as well but I'm not sure if Nick Nigro is on the phone anymore but maybe he's got an opinion on that or Joel Pointon.
Nick Nigro: Yeah. Linda, this is Nick. I can chime in on part of that. Most of the programs especially the ones on the Connecticut, Massachusetts and Tennessee those have limited funds. They took that approach in order to kind of provide clarity on how much the program would cost. The federal tax credit actually has a cap as well for the number of vehicles per manufacturer. In the case of Georgia I don't think that – I don't think that having the sunset from the beginning necessarily would have prevented what happened this year. The EV credit was part of a much larger transportation bill and so I think that the politics of funding transportation which is a national challenge these days probably superseded the cost of the EV program.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. Great. Thank you Nick. And we had a question from Pat Miller Crowley. Maybe somebody has some ideas for him. I think perhaps our AFLEET tool has some of this baked into it but I'm going to double check for him. He's asking I have yet to see a model which allows one to incorporate EVSE charging fees into TCO projections into total cost of ownership. Typically only allow residential or commercial electricity rate per kilowatt hour. This could have a significant impact on fleet's TCO projections if there's any more than indication in those fields charging anticipates. Do you know any models that do this? And I'm checking for him on our AFLEET model but is anybody aware of any other fleet models that might incorporate that?
Nick Nigro: I don't. This is Nick again. I don't but I do think that's really important although public charging only accounts for somewhere near certainly less than ten percent but closer to five percent of charging. It can be quite expensive if you compare it to the cost of residential charging.
Linda Bluestein: That's a good point. Ok. So I will get back to him on how our afleet tool might deal with it or be adapted to deal with it as well. We have some clarifications on some of the statements made about some of the charging. Somebody made a statement up front. I don't know if it was Dan or Nick made a statement about Energy EV Go or they may have omitted Energy EV Go which apparently offers special EV charging stations for multiunit dwellings. We also got a couple of clarifications from Charge Point that I'm looking up right now and as I look those up they were in several different places. The statement was Millennium Tower Charge Point does not charge anything. I guess the fee is handled by the building owner or manager and …….
Joel Pointon: We made that distinction. It's the HOA that sets the price of what is charged. I think that's the distinction. They've been sending me emails. We've been communicating about this.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. Ok. Great. Well maybe we'll just skip that and go on to some other stuff here. Let's see. Are there any greater benefits to individually assigned EVSE meters in regards to developing future demand response two way communication or are submeters sufficient for these types of capabilities?
Joel Pointon: So I'm just going to say that we're constantly seeing evolution in this area. We have a pilot project right now in California whereby the CPUC is experimenting with different types of submetering done by other vendors by others other than the utilities themselves. So we're going to see the results coming back from those types of experiments. You are seeing more and more of the EVSE service providers that are being capable of providing more detailed reports and breakdowns as to individual charging session utilization and being able to track that.
We have interesting business models evolving such as with power tree combining batteries, storage and solar and charging units and running building that energy management systems and doing the tracking and reporting. So I suggest people look at those examples via the internet and become familiar with them but we're constantly going to be seeing this evolving and more and more options coming to the market place.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. Thanks and for the apartment complexes what push back barriers were there for creating charging infrastructure and setting up how charging costs are shared between the building and residents? I'm not sure if Jukka or Joel…..
Jukka Kukkonen: I could say something about that one. I mean for apartment buildings that's pretty clear because if you're rental, it's a rental property. Then the management company can set it up whichever way they like. This comes more into play in condominiums where you have to figure out – and in most of the cases in condominiums they set up definitely some kind of a metering system there to at least get the certain portion of time metered so they have an understanding what the energy consumption is and then based on that they set up what the monthly rate for example would be.
Joel Pointon: And we've got two different case studies in the ones that I went through, one where basically there was a turnkey operation. Everyone paid the same rate for access to charging and their monthly service that was provided to them and that was provided by third party, not by the property management. And we've also seen the case study where the property management has worked to calculate what access to charging services that it provided at their location would be charged using the services of another party as well. So again it's going to be up to the community coming to an agreement. It is not unusual that rental scenarios the residents have less say in what the final decisions are but usually there is some sort of community feedback in coming to those decisions.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. Thank you. Ok. So let's see here. Have you done any case studies on affordable housing complexes? How do you think this would differ from the average MUD?
Jukka Kukkonen: In Minnesota at least we have not had any affordable studies, case studies yet on affordable housing. I just got a request from one location where they are building a new affordable housing and they were looking for EV infrastructure there but we haven't really done a case study about that yet.
Joel Pointon: As I mentioned the California ARB has just announced their program to make plug in electric vehicles more affordable to, for affordable housing scenarios so hopefully we will see those case studies going forward once people get those vehicles.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. Somebody points out this is Joseph Cannon points out CPUC program is much less cost effective in dollars per unit. Is there any information available why especially if they don't own or pay for the stations?
Joel Pointon: I would have to refer you to the CPUC website and the filings that were filed by the utility.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. Tulsa is rewriting its zoning codes for the first time since 1970 and we have asked for parking allowances and reduced minimums if buildings include EV charging stations, ride sharing parking, building owned vehicles for use by tenants, bicycle parking, low income housing, senior housing and proximity to transit. In what other ways can we incorporate EV charging infrastructure and zoning codes?
Jukka Kukkonen: Joel do you want to say something about the California clean building code?
Joel Pointon: Yes. So the California green building code which was originally a voluntary code had come out with recommendations for make ready type of installations, not fully wired but at least getting conduit in place, things of that sort. That has then progressed to required percentages of parking spaces that would be able to provide charging infrastructure within these new communities and now we're seeing title 24 which is the building code standard in California. We're looking at work groups that are working on specific recommendations for new construction for California for vehicle charging.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. And this is also a little bit of I guess more of the voluntary building code but they're asking when will LEED and state energy commission grants recognize level one installations? There are some great 16A commercial level one chargers. I've seen a lot at airports and workplaces. Any thoughts on that?
Jukka Kukkonen: I think that's an excellent point.
Joel Pointon: Yeah. It's an excellent point and definitely AC level one charging plays a role in solving the spectrum of challenges we have especially in multiunit dwelling. The wiring infrastructure in existing buildings may lend itself much better to giving more people access to AC level one than can be done using AC level two infrastructure. And so I agree with the person posing the question. When that will occur for LEED I have no clue.
Linda Bluestein: I think doesn't LEED redo their specifications every so often? And then I think people have a chance to comment. They have a public comment period on that. I don't know how often that comes up.
Joel Pointon: We have a green building counsel here and that seems to be our best conduit for offering feedback for changes to LEED certification point awards.
Linda Bluestein: Somebody commented that the presentations were very interesting and I tend to agree with that. And will they be available to participants? And the answer is yes with a capital Y and they will be available through the Clean Cities website. Sandra which link will they be at with the webinars?
Sandra Loi: So the presentations and then the Power Points themselves will be in addition to the recording will be posted on the Clean Cities website if they go to the main Clean Cities website under our toolbox and under webinars they can view it there.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. Just a couple more questions here before we wrap up. Somebody is asking I just wanted to clarify from the last presentation that CARB's new incentives of up to $12,000.00. If the meters are not near the parking spot and separate conduits for each charger versus sharing essential conduits. Ok. Go ahead.
Joel Pointon: I think she's asking about, there was a $1,500.00 fee or rebate that you could apply for relative to that package and I would have to again we have to go with the details at the website and how they're specified. So again I would refer you to the link that I had in that presentation. That will give you the background on the $12,000.00 program and on that page they have links to the EVSE stipend of $1,500.00 and the clean vehicle rebate for $1,500.00 or $2,500.00 depending on what type of vehicle you have.
Linda Bluestein: Ok. And then somebody commented a $1.25 per kilowatt hour. I think that was something that you mentioned in one of your slides as a fee is way more than gas. Is there a lot of pushback? Even the other unit has higher prices than gas.
Joel Pointon: Again the issue here is that the HOA or the property management is free to establish whatever rate they wish so that's an internal conversation and internal discussion. I agree that that is the highest price that I have seen for residential charging scenario. It's where they felt comfortable starting their charging and as they had already indicated their hope was to redo that charge as they got more information. So again that's an internal conversation as is much of what we're discussing. Each community is going to have to negotiate and work through these issues and come to the decision that they feel works for them and that includes the rate at which they charge or if they are charging at all.
Jukka Kukkonen: This is one good example why I for example have been – when I work with these developers, owners and management companies I've always kind of started from the very easy, affordable and simple solutions and if those don't work for whatever reason then going in the more complicated and more expensive solutions. But if you keep the costs down from the start then there's no pressure to have a high fee structures in place.
Linda Bluestein: And this is kind of along those lines. We were just talking about or Jukka was just talking about could the panelists comment on any models for the financing of multi-dwelling charging that they have seen or think may be the most promising?
Jukka Kukkonen: I could start from my perspective here. There's really – the setups that I've seen here as I've said we start from the easy and affordable approach and in those cases these companies have plenty of financing. They don't have any problems in putting – let's say it cost them $15,000.00 to put their 10 stations and that, if they look at their budget for $15,000.00 they can probably pour a couple of new steps somewhere or replace a couple of doors. It just doesn't even show anywhere. So that's what I always try to get these people – it's easy. It's affordable. Just go and do it and then start learning more about it.
Joel Pointon: And as you'll notice many of the case studies referenced in California there were funds provided either through DOE grants or California Energy Commission grants that helped fund some of these early projects. You saw one project that was financed up front to the tune of $80,000.00 by the HOA. That's a very unusual scenario but they were comfortable in trying to get their, recoup their investment over time. So again you're going to see a spectrum but we're hoping that this program like the one for the financing project offered finance by the California Energy Commission and it's managed by another California department. Those types of programs will help promote vehicle charging in these communities and we hope that will only continue.
Linda Bluestein: And I think at this point we need to wrap. And I just wanted to thank all of the panelists and thank you very much for a very quick paced Q&A session, answering a lot of questions that people have. I think we had a few that were left hanging but I tried to read the ones that would be of most interest to the entire audience. We thank you very much for that, also for the great presentations that you gave Jukka and Joel and Dan and Nick from C2ES. Much appreciated. We look forward to setting a new time for the next quarterly webinar and we'll announce fairly soon what the topic will be. And Sandra, did you have any closing comments or want to say anything?
Sandra Loi: No. That's it. That wraps up today's webinar. Again thank you all. You will receive a link with a recording of today's webinar and we will be posting all of the Power Points on our Clean Cities website so thank you again and have a good rest of the day. This concludes today's webinar.
Linda Bluestein: Thanks Sandra. Goodbye.